McCabe’s reflection on punishment reminds me of MacDonald’s unspoken sermon on Justice. It strikes me as strange the way that the language of debts and payments are often construed. That being so, I’m grateful for what Gregory left us in his 2nd Easter oration for asking to whom the payment was made: “But if to the Father, I ask first, how? For it was not by Him that we were being oppressed; and next, On what principle did the Blood of His Only begotten Son delight the Father, Who would not receive even Isaac, when he was being offered by his Father, but changed the sacrifice, putting a ram in the place of the human victim? Is it not evident that the Father accepts Him, but neither asked for Him nor demanded Him; but on account of the Incarnation, and because Humanity must be sanctified by the Humanity of God, that He might deliver us Himself, and overcome the tyrant, and draw us to Himself by the mediation of His Son, Who also arranged this to the honour of the Father, Whom it is manifest that He obeys in all things? So much we have said of Christ; the greater part of what we might say shall be reverenced with silence.”
Re: "The mission of Jesus from the Father is not the mission to be crucified; what the Father wished is that Jesus should be human. ... And this is what Jesus sees as a command laid on him by his Father in heaven; the obedience of Jesus to his Father is to be totally, completely human…"
Yes and amen. So totally human that he was subjected to death, whatever the source. I see this as God's great desire for intimacy with us... that very much in a Barthian sense he comes all the way into the far country to join us. I perceive this move of God as having the effect of subsuming us into his existence, and find it a compelling basis to perceive incarnation as atoning.
Within my personal life I describe this move as atoning defilement. In shorthand: God had declared some things/actions/statuses as defiling, death and dead beings being specifically enumerated. Yet God was so desperate for an intimate life with us that he became fully human in order to be with us. He became so fully humand that he even allowed himself to be subjected to death... allowed himself to become what he had declared to be defiling. God's love and desire for us is such that it trumps his own dogma. I also hold onto this a model for ministry... I aspire for my love of others to trump my dogma and 'purity codes' as I seek to walk alongside them.
Blessed Easter Chris. Thank you for all that you do. I am grateful.
So, this one is killing me. When you look at the whole of scripture, how can you get rid of penal substitution? It’s offensive, of course, but isn’t this the heart of the gospel? I’m sure you’ve written and preached about this before, but I must have missed it. Could you help me understand how you reached this conclusion and what specific biblical texts you’ve found that support it? I have loved everything I have ever heard or read from you, and my heart is kind of crushed to find something so foundational that just doesn’t make sense to me.
You are busy! You don’t need to worry about responding soon. But sometime, could you let me know your thoughts?
McCabe’s reflection on punishment reminds me of MacDonald’s unspoken sermon on Justice. It strikes me as strange the way that the language of debts and payments are often construed. That being so, I’m grateful for what Gregory left us in his 2nd Easter oration for asking to whom the payment was made: “But if to the Father, I ask first, how? For it was not by Him that we were being oppressed; and next, On what principle did the Blood of His Only begotten Son delight the Father, Who would not receive even Isaac, when he was being offered by his Father, but changed the sacrifice, putting a ram in the place of the human victim? Is it not evident that the Father accepts Him, but neither asked for Him nor demanded Him; but on account of the Incarnation, and because Humanity must be sanctified by the Humanity of God, that He might deliver us Himself, and overcome the tyrant, and draw us to Himself by the mediation of His Son, Who also arranged this to the honour of the Father, Whom it is manifest that He obeys in all things? So much we have said of Christ; the greater part of what we might say shall be reverenced with silence.”
One of my favorite passages of his.
Re: "The mission of Jesus from the Father is not the mission to be crucified; what the Father wished is that Jesus should be human. ... And this is what Jesus sees as a command laid on him by his Father in heaven; the obedience of Jesus to his Father is to be totally, completely human…"
Yes and amen. So totally human that he was subjected to death, whatever the source. I see this as God's great desire for intimacy with us... that very much in a Barthian sense he comes all the way into the far country to join us. I perceive this move of God as having the effect of subsuming us into his existence, and find it a compelling basis to perceive incarnation as atoning.
Within my personal life I describe this move as atoning defilement. In shorthand: God had declared some things/actions/statuses as defiling, death and dead beings being specifically enumerated. Yet God was so desperate for an intimate life with us that he became fully human in order to be with us. He became so fully humand that he even allowed himself to be subjected to death... allowed himself to become what he had declared to be defiling. God's love and desire for us is such that it trumps his own dogma. I also hold onto this a model for ministry... I aspire for my love of others to trump my dogma and 'purity codes' as I seek to walk alongside them.
Blessed Easter Chris. Thank you for all that you do. I am grateful.
So, this one is killing me. When you look at the whole of scripture, how can you get rid of penal substitution? It’s offensive, of course, but isn’t this the heart of the gospel? I’m sure you’ve written and preached about this before, but I must have missed it. Could you help me understand how you reached this conclusion and what specific biblical texts you’ve found that support it? I have loved everything I have ever heard or read from you, and my heart is kind of crushed to find something so foundational that just doesn’t make sense to me.
You are busy! You don’t need to worry about responding soon. But sometime, could you let me know your thoughts?
God bless you!!!!!!! This is sent with love.