Sorry to overload you with comments... Really enjoyed the conversation! I'm fascinated by your reading that Adam and Eve are aspects in each human. It reminded me of a reading Origen gives in his homily on Exodus 1 that really troubled me. He says that Pharaoh commanded the midwives to kill the baby boys but let the baby girls live. The text says that they feared God and did not do as Pharaoh said. Origen takes from this that they not only let the boys live but must've also killed the girls. He then argues that there is male and female in us all: the male is virtue and the female is vice and the work of the two Testaments (two midwives!) is to save the male in all of us but put to death the female. Really troubled me. Do you think Origen is actually grounding this reading of Exodus 1 in something similar to your reading of Adam and Eve, or do you think he is just off base here and his "misogyny" is showing lol?
Just listened to this and was wondering if you found anything useful from asking this question nearly a year ago regarding Origen and his homilies on Exodus?
Thank you, Cody, for drawing my attention to Cameron's question. I'm sorry I missed it when he posted it.
I think the force of this reading is something other than what it appears to be.
Don't mistake me: there were terribly misogynistic realities in early Christian teaching and practice, and I never want to try "spin" anything in ways that covers up or downplays those sins. They need to be named, mourned, repudiated, and insofar as possible made right.
That said, I believe Origen's point in this passage is not at all misogynistic—or for that matter misanthropic. Notice first that the midwives are the deliverers of the male. He sees them as figuring the two testaments of the Scripture, in fact. And he makes much of the other women in the passage—Moses' mother and sister, Pharaoh's daughter. On his reading, then, without the female the male cannot be given life. "The man is not without the woman nor the woman without the man," to quote St Paul. Each of is profoundly male and female, he says, and the evil one splits us, making is badly male and female by killing the one aspect that makes the other good and fruitful. Christ, in order to heal us, kills the femaleness Pharaoh has made through vice—and he does so by the wisdom of the femaleness the Spirit has created through virtue.
All to say, yes, I think Origen's homily is of a piece with the reading I was giving of Adam and Eve.
Thank you, Chris! I'm glad Cameron asked the question. Hopefully he finds your response and reflection as useful/hopeful as I did. I really loved the "After Eden" conversation. As a dad myself, I hope to have many of these conversations with my kids and guide them as I have been guided.
How lucky is Zoe to have a father who can have this conversation with her! I loved hearing you speak to her with such respect for her own thoughts while also teaching.
I have been influenced by Rene Girard, and light of his insights it makes sense to me that the subtlety of the serpent is in the character of mimetic desire, rivalry, and scapegoating (accusation) and violence. The subtlety is that human desire is a divinely created ‘good’ but so easily becomes disoriented/disordered by mimesis (which in itself is a fundamental created good). The violence which ensues is 100% self justified and morally right in the eyes of the one who is accusing another. No wonder we end up in such difficulty!
Lovely conversation, thank you to you and Zoe for making it available. Such a beautiful example of what our world desperately needs: inter-generational dialogue, rich with patience and thoughtful humility.
Also, it was fun to hear you reference Lynne Isbell’s fascinating research “The Fruit, the Tree, and the Serpent: Why We See So Well.” A very interesting read. Happy New Year to the Green Family!
Sorry to overload you with comments... Really enjoyed the conversation! I'm fascinated by your reading that Adam and Eve are aspects in each human. It reminded me of a reading Origen gives in his homily on Exodus 1 that really troubled me. He says that Pharaoh commanded the midwives to kill the baby boys but let the baby girls live. The text says that they feared God and did not do as Pharaoh said. Origen takes from this that they not only let the boys live but must've also killed the girls. He then argues that there is male and female in us all: the male is virtue and the female is vice and the work of the two Testaments (two midwives!) is to save the male in all of us but put to death the female. Really troubled me. Do you think Origen is actually grounding this reading of Exodus 1 in something similar to your reading of Adam and Eve, or do you think he is just off base here and his "misogyny" is showing lol?
Just listened to this and was wondering if you found anything useful from asking this question nearly a year ago regarding Origen and his homilies on Exodus?
Thank you, Cody, for drawing my attention to Cameron's question. I'm sorry I missed it when he posted it.
I think the force of this reading is something other than what it appears to be.
Don't mistake me: there were terribly misogynistic realities in early Christian teaching and practice, and I never want to try "spin" anything in ways that covers up or downplays those sins. They need to be named, mourned, repudiated, and insofar as possible made right.
That said, I believe Origen's point in this passage is not at all misogynistic—or for that matter misanthropic. Notice first that the midwives are the deliverers of the male. He sees them as figuring the two testaments of the Scripture, in fact. And he makes much of the other women in the passage—Moses' mother and sister, Pharaoh's daughter. On his reading, then, without the female the male cannot be given life. "The man is not without the woman nor the woman without the man," to quote St Paul. Each of is profoundly male and female, he says, and the evil one splits us, making is badly male and female by killing the one aspect that makes the other good and fruitful. Christ, in order to heal us, kills the femaleness Pharaoh has made through vice—and he does so by the wisdom of the femaleness the Spirit has created through virtue.
All to say, yes, I think Origen's homily is of a piece with the reading I was giving of Adam and Eve.
Thank you, Chris! I'm glad Cameron asked the question. Hopefully he finds your response and reflection as useful/hopeful as I did. I really loved the "After Eden" conversation. As a dad myself, I hope to have many of these conversations with my kids and guide them as I have been guided.
How lucky is Zoe to have a father who can have this conversation with her! I loved hearing you speak to her with such respect for her own thoughts while also teaching.
I have been influenced by Rene Girard, and light of his insights it makes sense to me that the subtlety of the serpent is in the character of mimetic desire, rivalry, and scapegoating (accusation) and violence. The subtlety is that human desire is a divinely created ‘good’ but so easily becomes disoriented/disordered by mimesis (which in itself is a fundamental created good). The violence which ensues is 100% self justified and morally right in the eyes of the one who is accusing another. No wonder we end up in such difficulty!
This was so good. I’d love to hear more discussions like this with your daughter.
thank you; we're going to do another soon, while she's home for Christmas
Lovely conversation, thank you to you and Zoe for making it available. Such a beautiful example of what our world desperately needs: inter-generational dialogue, rich with patience and thoughtful humility.
Also, it was fun to hear you reference Lynne Isbell’s fascinating research “The Fruit, the Tree, and the Serpent: Why We See So Well.” A very interesting read. Happy New Year to the Green Family!